Please help with me with ref/sync settings

[stevieturbo]

Has this engine/motec combination ever been tuned by a competent person ?

Or have you simply plugged it in with a base map and driving it like that ?

Most of the timing figures in that map are very low, right from the bottom of the table to the top. Just exactly what is the spec of the engine, how much boost, what turbo etc etc ?
Are all your sensors calibrated properly, ie MAP sensor etc ?

Your two scope traces posted look like perfectly good clean signals with no noise.

And as others have said, if there is any doubt that actual ignition timing is incorrect, you MUST verify that timing on the map refers to timing seen at the engine with a timing light.
But your ref/sync settings are correct for your age of subaru, so timing should be as commanded on the screen

As for voltage thresholds, this is explained in the webinar. At lower rpm's the voltage from the mag sensors will be lower, so they require a lower voltage threshold so they are recognised. At higher rpm's you can see from your scope trace your voltages are 10v and upwards ( albeit clipped at 10v ). So your threshold settings should be around 5v ( at these higher rpm's, not at lower rpm's ). This should eliminate any noise throwing an error

[scoobyman]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Yes, the car has been mapped by a competent person awhile ago, but since then we had a complete refurb and the engine has been out completely for three months (checking cylinder walls clearances, deck heigh etc, everything was found to be within tolerances, headgaskets replaced and put back together) and certain performance parts have been replaced ( exhaust, air intake, bigger IC, timing belt, installed EGT and lambda gauges ). Since then the car has had a slight adjustment to the map to correct the boost and lambda by a not-so skilled person, ignition was not touched.

Since then, i began having starting difficulties when my battery is undercharged (not sure if its related).
I have never seen my EGT's before, but after installing a gauge and seeing 900c after a midly spirited run (albeit on a hot day), i am assuming that it is a bit high.
And i have noticed a slight delay in turbo spool, which i attributed to a boost leak.

The engine is a closed block, forged, stroked ej20 with garrett gt3076 turbo with a boost aim of 240kpa, which translates in the real world to about 1.5 bar.

[scoobyman]

I am still slightly confused as to how i could find my mapper's reference to TDC that he used to set up ignition timings correctly.

So, if i use a timing light and find out that it takes my crank 602 degrees (which CRIP is set to now) after the index tooth to end up in TDC position, that will mean that if i set my ignition timing to 11 degrees BTDC then this is exactly where it is going to happen and it will be in sync with the exact crank position.

But, if my mapper never synced my CRIP to TDC with a timing light.
And while he was mapping with a CRIP value of 602, the crank could potentially be anywhere, it could be at TDC or 10 degrees BTDC or 10 degrees ATDC, he simply used his default CRIP as a reference and mapped from there.

So if he sets ignition timing to 10 degrees BTDC and because his CRIP is set incorrectly, real crank's position at this moment is 15 degrees BTDC, the map is out 5 real degrees, but it works for him, because there is no det and the car runs fine.
So now, say i correctly align my CRIP to TDC with a timing light and i have to set my CRIP to 607 to achieve this, the ignition of 10 in my map, will become synced with the crank's position, but in relation to my previous setup, my map has been retarded by 5 degrees.

Is this a possibility, am i understanding the concept of CRIP correctly ? I went through a fair few of sync/ref seminars, i sincerely hope that i got it right!

[stevieturbo]

In some respects, the numbers all mean nothing.

The crank index position is primarily to align the numbers you see on the screen, with the actual spark timing at the engine. They do not have to align as long as the car is tuned to run properly and safely, but it would be rather stupid for them not to.

602 IS the correct Crank index position for your engine.

It's very simple, get a timing light, and check the timing you see on the screen, is the timing as indicated on your timing light/crank pulley's TDC reference

if it is not, adjust the Crip until the two align with each other. Check at a couple of different timing settings, and a couple of different rpm's

But on your age of car it would be very difficult to get this wrong and the engine still run. There is no adjustment on the crank pulley, you cannot put it in the wrong place. So I cant actually see how it could be wrong.

As for EGT's, do you know your gauge is accurate ? And exactly where are you monitoring temperatures ? What are the temperatures like at idle, cruise etc ?

[scoobyman]

My EGT sensor is installed in the downpipe, right after the turbo (for ease of replacement and longevity) and i just add +150C to get the temperature that would be at exhaust manifold. When i say 900C, my sensor is actually showing 750C.

EGT, as measured at downpipe

Idle at 900rpm = 250-300C
Traffic, start stop up to 5k rpm = 500C
Cruising at 3-4.5k = 600C-650C
Spirited city driving (up to 7.5krpm full boost, start stop) = 750c, drops down to 550-600c when stopped for a minute.
Spirited highway = not measured.

Ok, I will try and get booked into a shop with a timing light.

Is this the correct procedure to check my timing alignment ?

1) Take a timing light and hook it up to cylinder 1 and unplug the injectors and coils.
2) Set the spark advance in the Motec to 0 degrees.
3) Take out the spark plugs so when you crank the engine it spins at a constant speed.
4) Take the small and large plugs out of the starter clutch cover on the right side of the engine.
5) Use a 14mm socket and ratchet and turn the engine over clockwise until you see the timing mark line up with the notch in the small inspection hole. This is the mark that you will be looking for with the timing light.
6) Hold the timing light onto the small inspection hole and crank the engine over. If your criP value is right, the timing mark will line up with the notch in the cover when the timing light flashes.
7) If it does not line up, keep changing the criP value untill the marks line up.

[scoobyman]

Or should i just use a regular procedure and hook up my timing light to cylinder 1, set test advance to 0 and let the car idle while checking the crank pulley with a timing light?

Can i check my timing at higher RPM while having test advance option set to 0. Or is it the case of always being correct at every RPM if idle timing is correct ?

[stevieturbo]

I'm sure there was a good write up somewhere about this, and locking Crip to cyl 1 only.

No matter.

Start and let the engine idle. Attach timing light to cyl 1

And read the timing from the light. This should match actual ignition advance commanded by the ecu ( as it appears on screen after any compensations have been applied )ie. Ign Adv

If the two do not match, adjust CRip until they do.

You do not need to set the map or anything else to zero. Although it may be easier if you only have a fixed timing light. Just spotted the section I was talking about in the setting CRip section.

It should only take 2-3 mins total. A dial back timing light will be easier and faster to use. If you just have a fixed timing light, it may be easier just to set the timing to zero, as I think the crank pulley might only have a single TDC reference.

Strangely, Ive found a map for an old car here that has the CRip set at 625. Another old map for an M48Pro car has it at 604.

Not sure what ignition system either was using though.

[scoobyman]

Alright, i'll get an access to a timing light and get to testing.

I will use the test advance mode and set my timing to 0 and test it at idle if it's a fixed timing light and if it's a dial-back timing light then i will just go with my ignition table values.

For settings that affect ignition timing i have the main ignition table, overall ignition trim and ignition compesation tables, is this correct ?

Thank you for your help!

[stevieturbo]

Pretty much. And in test mode, only cylinder 1's timing is locked to your test setting which is handy as the engine will still run just fine like that

If you're just viewing normal timing with a dial back and not in test mode. Ignore the main table and watch only IgnAdv which will be the actual timing figure the ecu is firing after compensations have been applied.

Open up display with this if you need to.