Engine Speed vs Engine sync position

[Jolly Wrenchers]

Have not been able to get "cycle lock". Harness wiring had MAP signal to universal digital input 2, so I was not getting the crank reference signal to UDI2. Engine speed reference was working fine using the crank sensor signal on UDI1. I moved the crank sensor to position UDI2 and get a good signal now on Engine Synchronization but of course lost Engine speed.
If this set up doesn't have a crank and cam sensor, how do I get this signal to both the engine speed and the crank position? Will it work to simply physically bridge those connections, or will this just introduce another issue? What is the usual way around getting both engine speed and synchronization when there is only one sensor source, is there a source other than cam and crank that could be utilized?

[NathanB]

This is a product you were sent by a developer for your 'beta' application correct?
Crank sensor signal will be wired to udig 1. This is hard coded in M1 system firmware.

Can you see which engine reference mode is used, or is it hard coded?

There are a couple of engine reference modes made for 4 stroke motorbike engines without cam sensors, in which a map sensor is used for synchronisation.

If the engine in question has more than 1 cylinder, the map sensor is normally connected to an intake runner to generate sufficient signal resolution to generate a signal and the sync ignore function is enabled at a suitable engine speed.

Having the throttle open too far on cranking will also affect the signal resolution, as will the engine cranking speed.

Seeing as in previous items you have not shared sufficient information for any of us to really provide you with any help, you will need to get in contact with the developer that you are working with.

[David Ferguson]

Tell us about the engine (2/4 stroke, number cylinders)-- you were trying to use a MAP sensor for sync -- is it a two cylinder, or do you have a separate MAP sensor for one cylinder. This can be done, but you have to set the threshold voltage and edge carefully. Monitor the voltage while cranking. I've done this successfully for a KTM Super Duke engine.

Without some way to detect the engine phase, you will need to set it up like a 2-stroke or run wasted spark / batch injection. Setup depends on your package and you've indicated you have something custom. Share the current package if you want more detailed help.

-- I see Nathan has posted a similar response.

[Jolly Wrenchers]

Thank-you for the replies and information. This is a 2 cylinder, 4 cycle engine with a dual clutch transmission. Originally the MAP sensor was part of a combined throttle position/MAP sensor that shares 5V+ and 0V with 2 signal wires coming out. Over time that was replaced with a 3 bar remote MAP sensor and a break out harness. I will look deeper to see if I can see a signal on either of these MAP sensors. I spent a little time experimenting with that signal and didn't see anything usable from either map sensor.
In the firmware help it states the UIDG1 is engine speed, and UIDG2 is engine synchronization. I am thinking the crank position sensor signal should go to UIDG2, is this incorrect?
If I am understanding correctly I should be using (if able) the MAP signal for engine speed and crank position sensor for synchronization.

FWIW on the developer side, there have been a number of pretty capable folks trying to build out firmware for this application for some time now. Guessing if it was easy it would have happened some time ago. I'm grateful for the opportunity to work with these folks and am just trying to be more help than drag on what they are trying to accomplish. I don't feel it is my right to risk sharing information that may be proprietary, so I'd rather err on the side of not sharing and not risk it. My goal here is to make sure I am doing all I can from the installer side and just reach out to them when it appears there may be some change needed in the firmware.

I understand that complicates things and I apologize for that, but appreciate any help you folks are willing to share. I am enjoying the journey and learning a lot in a hurry.

[David Ferguson]

The Crank Position Signal is the Engine Speed (UDIG1). The MAP sensor (if connected to only a single cylinder) could be a Sync signal (ie, one pulse per cycle, when the throttle is closed and you are cranking the engine). Connect your sensors to UDIG1 & 2, and use Online->Input Capture to capture cranking the engine. Export that file, and upload it here (that has NO package information), often we can help you setup parameters for the Ref/Sync based on that file.

Looking at a package in no way reveals any proprietary information, it is only the tuning information, all IP remains with the developer in his source project used in M1 Build.

[Jolly Wrenchers]

Thanks for your explanation there David. It turns out as I feared I had introduced a problem with some changes I had made to the vehicle earlier on.

The OEM system had the MAP and TPS sensor combined and did pull from one cylinder. It was a 2 bar sensor that we had outgrown so we put a breakout harness between the OEM wiring harness and the sensor and moved the MAP to a standard Honda style that got its source between the two cylinder intake ports. In doing so we lost that signal.

I put everything back to original and am now getting cycle lock using the data in the original package for speed and ref sync. This is the kind of lesson I learn best from and appreciate the help working through it. I’ve got a long way to go to be “knowledgeable” on the MoTeC platform, but I am closer than I was yesterday.

Cycle lock issue resolved.

[David Ferguson]

Yea!

[Jolly Wrenchers]

Final post for this thread, just wanted to share the car is running and driving all under control of the MoTeC now. Next step is to install the bigger turbo, external waste gate and supporting peripherals. Once we get that and a few other sensors installed we get to start seeing where we can take all of this!

Again, really appreciate the help from folks on the forum!