RB26 start help

[tarmac terror]

Hi folks.
I have been tweaking around with my settings lately and am at the point of trying to start the car. After many tries, it wont and I need a fresh pair of eyes to try and figure out what's wrong. I'm sure it's something simple. To recap..

RB26 fitted with R34 coils and aftermarket 36-1 crank trigger. I'm using Marelli magnetic SEN8D sensors for crank and cam phase. I'm also using ID1000 injectors.

The Ref/Sync capture and config files are attached. I'm guessing that it is most probably some simple setting that I've screwed up on.

modified ref.rsc2

(64.45 KiB) Downloaded 864 times

R32GTR-SH.e35

(72 KiB) Downloaded 855 times

Any help would be most appreciated...


TT

[David Ferguson]

The number one thing that catches most people out with their first MoTeC Mx00 installation is the wiring. The injector and ignition connections are to be done in firing order, not the cylinder number. So while INJ1 and IGN1 are for Cylinder 1, typically most of the rest are different.

The table in the software for firing order is only used so the software can display cylinder number information.

If you've haven't gotten this right, it's easy to fix. Just swap the pins as necessary at the M800 connector.

[tarmac terror]

Hi David, thanks for the response. I was made aware of this before I configured the ECU so it should be all good.

IGN1 - Cyl 1 ; IGN2 - Cyl 5 ; IGN3 - Cyl 3 ; IGN4 - Cyl 6 ; IGN5 - Cyl 2 ; IGN6 - Cyl 4. Injectors are same.



I've literally JUST been out at the car to test injector and ignition outputs. Found an anomally.....

Went into the ECU to the test IGN output page. Removed No.1 coil and fitted a test plug and earthed the plug. On starting test, nothing happened...
Then went into PDM to check all was well there. On the PDM monitor page, the coil output pin had tripped out. On resetting the fault I tested the PDM coil output, only when the coil load reached 100% did I notice the spark plug physically fire!! It then tripped out!! I have not got this output to 'always retry'.
I have the PDM set up so a common coil +12V is supplied from a 20A output (Output 7). I am using R34 coils with built-in igniters. The coil +12V pin is set to be active when the ECU output pin is active (which made sense). Config below......

R32GTR ConfigurationLatest.pdm

(203.18 KiB) Downloaded 859 times

Firstly, I was surprised that the coil fired without a 'fire' command to the coil from ECU even though +12V was being supplied.
Secondly, this sounds like more than just a current under-supply problem?? I have another free 20A output so could easily add another 20A to the circuit. However, the PDM manual does state that ignition systems don't normally require more than 1 20A output..


Glad I seem to have traced the issue to the ignition but I can't figure out what's wrong here...


TT

[Sean]

My feeling is that if you are tripping a 20A output on the pdm there's something very wrong.

For comparison , a v8 with 8 coils I have data for is running at an average of 4 amps.

It's not unknown for coils to self discharge, I believe I've read on here about some particular LS coils that can self fire if they are over dwelled.

[David Ferguson]

Do you have an external ignitors for your coils? Or are you sure they have built-on ignitors?

None of the MoteC ECUs can drive inductive coils directly.

Perhaps your ignitors need the polarity inverted.

[tarmac terror]

Hi David.

Coils are R34GTR spec Yellow Jacket coils which means they have built-in igniters.

They have +, - and IB marked on the connector. I am lead to believe that + is for +12V, - is engine ground and IB is ECU trigger signal and this is how I have wired them.


TT

[tarmac terror]

I thought I would update this...

I have managed to solve this particular issue. It would seem there was an issue surrounding the IGN type and the particular config I was using. I have 3 different PC's running ECU manager and each has (what should be) the latest config on it. It would seem that the garage PC which is connected to the car had IGN type as 2 and not 1 like all the other versions. This was such a silly mistake and I've taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again...

However.....

I now have functioning ignition (confirmed by 'Test Output' function in ECU Manager). Despite this, I cannot get the car to fire. I have a feeling that it has something to do with the REF/SYNC settings but I can't see what's wrong.
I am using a 36-1 trigger wheel on crank with Marelli SEN8D sensor and a bolt on the exh cam wheel with SEN8D sensor for SYNC. The most recent capture is in the original post above. Despite a small bit of noise, it looks like the REF and SYNC signals are decent and valid.

My current CRIP value is 477. I used the method in the manual of lining up the SYNC trigger, spinning the engine around to the missing REF tooth and then turning engine around to No.1 TDC. The value obtained was 477deg (117 + 360).

It's frustrating that I KNOW the car is capable of supplying fuel (injector's working and fuel pressure good), capable of supplying spark (coil packs observed to physically fire when tested using 'test output') and is getting air. Therefore it must be something simple that I've missed in the setup....

Any thoughts?? (thanks for the help on this so far )



TT

[David Ferguson]

The number 2 thing that catches folk out, is the CRiP value being off by 360 degrees, so it's always worth trying a 360 degree change if it doesn't seem like it wants to run.

Also, I've had a chance to look at your config and Ref/Sync capture -- you should be using falling edge for the Ref/Sensor edge polarity (currently rising edge), or you may reverse the wires going to the sensor. This will cause a timing error (and the error will likely increase with RPM), but shouldn't be the reason the engine won't start.

I just was checking out the webinar below, and we might have a problem because your rising edge Ref and falling edge sync occur at the same time -- so perhaps changing the polarity of the Ref would allow things to run.

I suggest you review this webinar on Ref/Sync to learn more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87_SRTuGZu4&hd=1

Lastly when cranking the engine with the the Diagnostics screen up (F5), does the Ref/Sync Synchronized go active? That's what you need to achieve before any fuel or spark will be delivered.

[tarmac terror]

Thanks David...I'll try changing the REF sensor polarity and see what happens.


TT

[tarmac terror]

OK, so earlier today I had another go....
Moved the position of the missing tooth on the trigger to 80deg BTDC and input the value into the CRIP setting. Tried to start and the motor was a lot happier after the change. You could hear it was ALMOST wanting to start and on one occasion it managed to self-sustain combustion for about 3s. It's frustratingly close to starting properly.....

Problem is I just CAN'T see what is wrong and I'm sure it's just an incorrect setting somewhere..

I'm using the R34 base injector and ignition maps on the Motec site. I'm using R34 coils so that's good but I'm using ID1000 injectors. As you can see from my config above, I've changed the battery comp table to the one in the Motec 1000cc injector datasheet but think I may have a setting out e.g scaling etc?

Just want the thing started!!!!!


TT