No Fuel Trim/ No Fuel Tables

[MaBaMM]

Hi Members,

i've problems with our current setup on our testing bench.

At first some facts about the system:
- M150 with a modified GPRG M150 Porject -> converted to a package
- all engine settings are set up, engine runs
- all Sensors work
- just one primary injection, 1 injector per cylinder
- i've import the fuel and ignition tables from our M800. In our M800 (and M150) the Fuel Main table was referenced to Cylinder 2. The max. Injector opening time was 8ms. In the Fuel Main Table we just entered percentage-values (50% equals 4ms opening time). In the other Fuel tables for Cylinder 1, 3 and 4 we also entered a percentage-value but this value was based on the value in cylidner 2 (when in Cylinder 2 is 50% (4ms) -> 10% in Cylinder 1 or 3 or 4 means 55% totaly (4,4ms). I hope i could explain it?!
- the fuel main table is entered by engine efficiency, all other tables are entered in fuel cylinder 1 trim, 3 trim and 4 trim. (!!!BUT the description in the M1 F1-Button means "how effectively the cylinder fills with air. It is used to calculate Engine Load."!!!)
- we have change the y-axis in our engine efficiency and fuel cylinder X trim tables. From default Inlet manifold pressure to engine load normalised. I hope this change isn't the reason for our problems.

The main problem acutaly is:
- the engine/ecu doesn't care about any values in the tables. I can change them extremely from 5% to 100%, the injector still inject the same volume. On all cylinders.
- when i enter any value in fuel overall trim like 100% - nothing happens
- when i enter a calculated table in fuel injector primary linearisation - the injection still stops. (for example: our injection flow rate is 116 g/min. We use E85 so the density is 770 kg/m3. This means 2,49296 mikroliters/ms. So i entered 2,49296 and 1ms, 19,9436 and 8ms). when i clear this table and just enter 8ms, the injector works good.

I hope you can help me.

Thanks for answers. Greetings from germany munich.

Malik

[David Ferguson]

Are you sure you are connected to the ECU and not just editing the configured package? When connected to the ECU you should be able to determine what is causing the current fuel pulse.

When changing tables, are you sure you are changing the cells that the engine is operating in?

You are simulating or running an actual engine right? You're not using Engine Output Test, are you? That always uses a 50% duty cycle for injector outputs.

I suspect your injector characterization is incorrect. Perhaps you can use File->Export Configuration and just export the Fuel Injector configuration then attach that here.

[MaBaMM]

Hi David,

At first thank you for your fast answer. Very great

yes im sure that i was connected to the ecu. The connected symbol on the m1 tune is still green. All channels send live data.
The engine still runs as i have change fuel trim. I also saved the package. So the ecu also will save it.

Im also sure that i have change the right cells in the tables.

I will do that again an look at all to ensure my work on the engine. I will give you a feedback maybe on monday.

No im running an actual engine (hardware on a testing bench). Its the same engine that has worked with the m800 since 2 or 3 years. We also started the engine last thursday with the m800 and changed then to the m150. I also realised this problem on that day but i would calibrate the sensors at first and yes i did it the sensors work great.

I also have used the engine test output. But not at the same time.
There i inject at primary injectors on cylinder 1 2 3 and 4 at 1000rpm. It worked very well.
Then i choose 10000rpm and it worked mzch faster what i have expected. (Its a honda cbr 600 pc40 engine, runs about 14000rpm

I also would expect that the injector characterization is not perfect or right. I will fix that tomorrow.
But it wouldnt explain why the fuel overall trim doesnt works. So i mean.

I will post some screenshots maybe tomorrow or on monday. Tomorrow im not at the testing area. Sorry

Thanks a lot david and greetings from munich

Malik

[David Ferguson]

I also would expect that the injector characterization is not perfect or right. I will fix that tomorrow.
But it wouldnt explain why the fuel overall trim doesnt works. So i mean.

Malik

Depends on what you have wrong. For example, if you have the Fuel Injector Primary Off Time set too large, then you can't have larger pulse widths. Or if you have the reference pressure or flow incorrect, then your corrections may be scaled down to effectively no change.

This game of guessing what you could have done wrong is very difficult. Post a calibration we can look at, or offer to email it to folks you trust, or send it to MoTeC.

[Stephen Dean]

Hi,

Is there a reason for going to Engine Load Normalised (a calculated channel, not an actual sensor based channel) as the load axis for the efficiency table? I would go back to a unmodified GPR Package and get the engine running on this Package first, and understand how the M1 works doing this. This will also allow you to validate the operation of all of the systems on the engine with a known good environment and generate a baseline to work against. Once you have gotten the engine running on the GPR Package, then you can start to modify the Package to suit your aims

With the injectors, if they are not available in the Injector Calibration, we can calibrate them for you, this will require the injector to be sent to us via your dealer, we need them for approx 1 week to do the testing and we then send them back. For injectors to be calibrated they have to be a commercially available injector that can be readily purchased by anyone, and that have not been modified from that state. If they are modified, then we are not able to use them as it opens to possibility of two injectors that are nominally the same, actually being quite different.

[MaBaMM]

Hi David and Dean,

thanks for your answers.

at first i load up the Config. But the Forum doesnt accept any files of the typ .m1cfg
So i load up as a .m1pkg-archive (File-> Export as)
I hope this will also help you.
If not, you can send me your mail adress so i will send it as a .m1cfg file

The reason for the change from Inlet Manifold Pressure to Engine Load Normalised is that we just would have a percentage-value on the y-axis and not a kPa-value.
And the Engine Load Normalised is calculated from Inlet Manifold Pressure / Ambient Barometric Pressure.
Our Inlet Manifold Pressure an Ambient Barometric Pressure is sensor based (MAP and BAP hardware-sensors are used)

To change or load an origin package from the motec online page will be my next step... had no time for do it earlier. sorry.

Thank for your offer. I will talk to my teamleader and give you a feedback.
But i look at the other offered injectors in the M1 and there is the Bosch 0280 158 057. I use on the engine the Bosch 0280 158 053. The angle of the spray is the only difference between them. I choose this one yesterday but did no test. Will do it today.

Yesterday i test/run the injectors with 0 ms Fuel Primary Off Time. The refference Pressure was the original one from the datasheet of the Injector.

So my next steps will be:
- load an origin package an run the injectors
- change the y-axis from engine load normalised to inlet manifold pressure and run the injectors
- type in the correct calibrations for the injectors and run the injecotrs

Yesterday i saw that the engine load and the engine load normalised doesnt change when i crank the engine.
I haven look on them when the engine still runs. Will do this monday.

Thank a lot and greetings from munich.

Malik

[David Ferguson]

I can't see your whole package (I'm just using the Tools->Compare Firmware with a standard GPR package), but I think you've made a serious mistake by removing Fuel Mixture Aim (and Fuel Mixture Aim State) and trying to replace that with "Lambda Aim" -- I suspect you've missed some critical piece of code (hint -- look at Fuel Volume Calculation and Fuel Volume Output Calculation) that depends on that object being there to calculate the fuel volume required (on the M1 there are alternate Mixture Aim tables that can be used, one of those may be determining your fueling). I wouldn't be surprised if that is why none of your tables are working, and things are behaving like it's in the Engine Output Test mode.

It seems like you are trying to copy your M800 style of work over the the M1, when the M1 has a very different model -- As Stephen said, you should learn to understand that, then apply your changes.

I think the suggestion to get the engine running on the base GPR package is a good one. If you've got it running now, it won't be that hard to move over your ref/sync setup, and sensor configurations and calibrations. I bet you get it running, you'll find that you can just fill in the Fuel Mixture Aim table with your previous Lambda Aim Table Values, and the Cylinder trims can be your cylinder trims relative to cylinder 2, and cylinder 2 can have all 0's for it's trims.

Good Luck!

[MaBaMM]

Hi David,

i just have changed the name not the whole object (didnt delete the object at all). I thought when i change something in the build and create a new package the system will tell me all errors. It does it and i fixed some problems. But there was no ERROR message for Fuel Mixture Aim or Lambda Aim.
But i also think that this can be a serious problem and i will undo it.
So i start to configure the settings back from Engine Load Normalised to Inlet Manifold Pressure and also rename the object from Fuel Lambda Aim to Fuel Mixture Aim.
Also i will do the steps what i have explained in the further post.

My colleagues finished the new loom on the car so i can test the injectors today with new packages.

@Dean: We would send you one injector that you can calibrate it for us, thank you! Can you calibrate other sensors and our ignition coil too? That would be very nice of you.
Can you tell me were i have to send it and how we go on with that? What do you also need? Datatsheet or something?

Thanks

Malik

[MaBaMM]

Hi guys,

the loom is still working but the oil system doesnt. So i wouldnt crank the engine for many times without oil.
My colleagues will fix it at the weekend.

See you soon.

Malik

[Stephen Dean]

To organise to get the injectors/coils/sensors tested, you will need to speak to your local dealer. They will organise for the parts to be sent to us, and will also receive them back once tested. We do not charge for the calibration of the items, as long as they are an unmodified, commercially available component. You will have to cover the freight costs back and forth though.

Before doing this however, if you can send the part numbers through to support @ motec.com.au, and we can check to see if they have already been done, if they have, then there is no need to send them again.