Truck will not start, please help M4 ford 4.0L
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:16 pmHello Motec Friends,
I am new to motec, just started learning it last week and have already done an entire wire trace job and research on parameters.
I race v6 unlimited (min trophy truck) in the states. I made a deal with a fellow racer for his old motor (freshened up and rebuilt) and computer in exchange for half the driving for the season.
The motor is identical to what I had in it before except for the fact mine was stock and used a modified stock stand alone harness and computer. This motor is built up with 13:1 compression (stock is 9 something) and uses 110 octane and different sensors along with motec m4 computer system.
It is a 2005+ mustang 4.0L sohc using the older 98+ explorer 4.0L sohc intake modified to fit a LS throttle body and TPS sensor. It uses LS injectors part number GM #12561462, a GM 1 Bar Delco MAP sensor, the motec Delco AT sensor 3/8NPT, and the motec Bosch Engine Temp sensor with the M12 thread.
It uses a stock ford crank sensor Ref-Mag with a 36-1 reluctor wheel. The stock cam sensor is in the motor but it is not wired up to the computer.
The ignition system used the ford EDIS6 coil pack, with a bosch ignitor 7 wire 3 channel 0227 100 203
We have not been able to get it to start. Have gotten back fires and a pop before. It ran the previous truck, but the guy that rebuilt the motor (not original motor builder or wirer) had the computer wiped because it had a lock on it. He has not been able to set the parameters right to get it to start. At first he used parameters he used on a megasquirt he did a few weeks prior and burned up my ignition ignitor. I had to get a new one and I have been following manual as if it was a fresh new start.
From what motec has told me is this is a wasted spark system that we are firing in batch fire and running it like a two stroke. This part confuses me because the engine makes two revolutions on the crank per cycle but to run it like a two stroke that be one cycle 360 degrees. So the ref/sync mode I do not know if I should be using 51-54 for 1 missing for two cycles or 61,63 for one missing for one cycle.
The firing order is 1-4-2-5-3-6 originally I wired the injectors up (1,4) (2,5) (3,6) but then I was told to wire ignition and injectors the same (1,5) (4,3) (2,6) this is how it is currently wired up. However when you put firing order in software it says injector 1 (1,4) inj 2 (2,5) and inj 3 (3,6) but the ignition is ign 1 (1,5) ign 2 (4,3) ign 3 (2,6). I was going to open harness back up and change injectors but motec said its fine to leave it wired the same as ignition.
Also we didnt realize this until the last day of trying to get this to start, we thought we were getting no spark or really late because it came after cranking. I figure out how to use the ignition test and turns out the ignition was not working the way I wired it up. I used Motec M38 diagram & C01 diagram but somehow either in the computer or the wiring diagram not correct it got mixed up. To fix it temporarily we switched some plug wires on the coil pack/edis so our ignition was firing 1,5 then 4,3 then 2,6. Using the wiring diagram of M38 & C01 (modified our coil pack goes 123 564) coil/ign 1 (1,5) coil/ign 2 (4,3) coil/ign 3 (2,6) if you find a stock 4.0l coil pack diagram they put coil 3 in between 1 and 2. Anyways I wired the coils and ignitions up using that and into 33-35 on ecu but somehow ignition 1 was (4,3) ign 2 (2,6) ign 3 (1,5). So for now we just moved the spark plugs wires around to get the firing order we wanted.
I have a complete excel spreadsheet showing were wires are connecting from on my computer and all my sensors. We also have a milspec connector on our firewall, our grounds go through this to a post on the firewall. That post has a big ground wire on the engine side of the firewall that grounds to block. We use breakers, honeywell switches, and power post and master battery switch in cab. The ignition has a switch and breaker that powers coil pack, the ecu is wired straight to the main battery power switch so constant once power turned on. Fuel pumps are on there own breakers and switches, and starter is on a momentary button.
I am finding a lot of misleading information about getting my ref parameters correct. For instance the Crip I think it is suppose to be 50 degrees for my setup. If I put the sensor over tooth one the index tooth, there are 5 teeth to TDC, index tooth is 6 teeth away, and missing tooth is 7 teeth away. I have found both 60 degree and 50 degrees online for this setup, there is no degree wheel on the wheel. Also do you put the sensor over the index tooth or TDC when you go to start and input your crip parameter.
The tooth ratio we have been using 50, but I wonder if its wrong because we get a sync error a lot and in the webinar talks about cranking amps and that error being in relation to the sync error. The not ok sync does go away during ranking but we almost always get the sync error. Sometimes the top two in middle row to: inj max duty and over rpm.
For the crank reference teeth do we use 36 or 72 if it goes around twice. Motec said to use 36.
Ref sensor type I use 2 for mag input, but for the sync sensor type I have tried 0 and 2 even though we dont use one.
As I stated above, I am not sure which ref/sync mode to use and I know its very important, motec told the motor guy 61, I tried 61, 63, and 51
Based on M38 diagram ignition system type is 1, coil is 3, dwell is 3.0, and for ignition delay I have been using the typical 50 since I do not know how to figure this parameter out.
We use a TPS so our EFF & Load are set at 1 and LD s is at -1 (is that correct or should it be 100). Cylinders is set to 36.
Our injector parameters are all based on what the motor guy input because I have had trouble finding info on these injectors. The bosch number ends in 931 I believe GM # is 12561462. The IJPU was at 10 (7-10 for naturally aspirated) but I change it to 8 then 7 based on the fuel tables not being over 60. The IJCU was set at 2.5 but moved it to 4.0 because I found out that current could be 2-5 and you have to double it. The IJBC has been 8 since the engine guy put that in. IJOP is 1 for group fire mode.
As I stated earlier the injectors are not wired the way the computer recognizes them. Computer says 1,4 2,5 and 3,6 they are wired 1,5 4,3 and 2,6 same as ignition.
I have been trying hard to research and learn this as much as possible, but now worried going to damage motor. I dont quite understand cylinder trims. I did use the crank index position screen put it at 50 and test advance at 0. Right now BTDC is 10 degrees through the entire table. We have yet to get the timing light to flash anywhere near TDC and usually after cranking over. Have only tried twice since we discovered the ignition was firing wrong. We got a bang in the pan so we stopped. We have found lots of diagrams on the 36-1 reluctor wheel and edis 6 they all seem to show sensor over TDC or over index tooth and are either 50 or 60 degrees. Some say to put sensor over missing tooth at TDC, lik I said lots of misleading info. How do you log the rpm at 200hz?
Is there anyway to go from a Batch Fire to Semi-Sequential system with my setup so not wasting fuel or are they basically the same in my setup?
Can you help with injection timing and injector dead time.
What I really need is help just getting it to idle. I plan to take it to the same engine guy to put on his dyno and tune. He owes me a tuning for building the motor. But I prefer to get started myself since I have gotten a little further and if something gets ruined then im to blame.
To refresh your memory here is my general setup parameters
IJPU=7
IJCU=4
IJBC=8
IJOP=1
EFF=1
LOAD=1
LD s=-1
CYLS=36
RESn=2
SYSn= 0 (or 2)
reF= ? tried 61, 63 which is one missing one cycle (2 stroke) 51-54 one missing two cycles (4 stroke)
crT=36 or should it be 72
TOr=50
criP=50.0
Ign=1
COIL=3
DeLL=3.0
Dly=50
Now I need to try and get my diagrams on here for you
I am new to motec, just started learning it last week and have already done an entire wire trace job and research on parameters.
I race v6 unlimited (min trophy truck) in the states. I made a deal with a fellow racer for his old motor (freshened up and rebuilt) and computer in exchange for half the driving for the season.
The motor is identical to what I had in it before except for the fact mine was stock and used a modified stock stand alone harness and computer. This motor is built up with 13:1 compression (stock is 9 something) and uses 110 octane and different sensors along with motec m4 computer system.
It is a 2005+ mustang 4.0L sohc using the older 98+ explorer 4.0L sohc intake modified to fit a LS throttle body and TPS sensor. It uses LS injectors part number GM #12561462, a GM 1 Bar Delco MAP sensor, the motec Delco AT sensor 3/8NPT, and the motec Bosch Engine Temp sensor with the M12 thread.
It uses a stock ford crank sensor Ref-Mag with a 36-1 reluctor wheel. The stock cam sensor is in the motor but it is not wired up to the computer.
The ignition system used the ford EDIS6 coil pack, with a bosch ignitor 7 wire 3 channel 0227 100 203
We have not been able to get it to start. Have gotten back fires and a pop before. It ran the previous truck, but the guy that rebuilt the motor (not original motor builder or wirer) had the computer wiped because it had a lock on it. He has not been able to set the parameters right to get it to start. At first he used parameters he used on a megasquirt he did a few weeks prior and burned up my ignition ignitor. I had to get a new one and I have been following manual as if it was a fresh new start.
From what motec has told me is this is a wasted spark system that we are firing in batch fire and running it like a two stroke. This part confuses me because the engine makes two revolutions on the crank per cycle but to run it like a two stroke that be one cycle 360 degrees. So the ref/sync mode I do not know if I should be using 51-54 for 1 missing for two cycles or 61,63 for one missing for one cycle.
The firing order is 1-4-2-5-3-6 originally I wired the injectors up (1,4) (2,5) (3,6) but then I was told to wire ignition and injectors the same (1,5) (4,3) (2,6) this is how it is currently wired up. However when you put firing order in software it says injector 1 (1,4) inj 2 (2,5) and inj 3 (3,6) but the ignition is ign 1 (1,5) ign 2 (4,3) ign 3 (2,6). I was going to open harness back up and change injectors but motec said its fine to leave it wired the same as ignition.
Also we didnt realize this until the last day of trying to get this to start, we thought we were getting no spark or really late because it came after cranking. I figure out how to use the ignition test and turns out the ignition was not working the way I wired it up. I used Motec M38 diagram & C01 diagram but somehow either in the computer or the wiring diagram not correct it got mixed up. To fix it temporarily we switched some plug wires on the coil pack/edis so our ignition was firing 1,5 then 4,3 then 2,6. Using the wiring diagram of M38 & C01 (modified our coil pack goes 123 564) coil/ign 1 (1,5) coil/ign 2 (4,3) coil/ign 3 (2,6) if you find a stock 4.0l coil pack diagram they put coil 3 in between 1 and 2. Anyways I wired the coils and ignitions up using that and into 33-35 on ecu but somehow ignition 1 was (4,3) ign 2 (2,6) ign 3 (1,5). So for now we just moved the spark plugs wires around to get the firing order we wanted.
I have a complete excel spreadsheet showing were wires are connecting from on my computer and all my sensors. We also have a milspec connector on our firewall, our grounds go through this to a post on the firewall. That post has a big ground wire on the engine side of the firewall that grounds to block. We use breakers, honeywell switches, and power post and master battery switch in cab. The ignition has a switch and breaker that powers coil pack, the ecu is wired straight to the main battery power switch so constant once power turned on. Fuel pumps are on there own breakers and switches, and starter is on a momentary button.
I am finding a lot of misleading information about getting my ref parameters correct. For instance the Crip I think it is suppose to be 50 degrees for my setup. If I put the sensor over tooth one the index tooth, there are 5 teeth to TDC, index tooth is 6 teeth away, and missing tooth is 7 teeth away. I have found both 60 degree and 50 degrees online for this setup, there is no degree wheel on the wheel. Also do you put the sensor over the index tooth or TDC when you go to start and input your crip parameter.
The tooth ratio we have been using 50, but I wonder if its wrong because we get a sync error a lot and in the webinar talks about cranking amps and that error being in relation to the sync error. The not ok sync does go away during ranking but we almost always get the sync error. Sometimes the top two in middle row to: inj max duty and over rpm.
For the crank reference teeth do we use 36 or 72 if it goes around twice. Motec said to use 36.
Ref sensor type I use 2 for mag input, but for the sync sensor type I have tried 0 and 2 even though we dont use one.
As I stated above, I am not sure which ref/sync mode to use and I know its very important, motec told the motor guy 61, I tried 61, 63, and 51
Based on M38 diagram ignition system type is 1, coil is 3, dwell is 3.0, and for ignition delay I have been using the typical 50 since I do not know how to figure this parameter out.
We use a TPS so our EFF & Load are set at 1 and LD s is at -1 (is that correct or should it be 100). Cylinders is set to 36.
Our injector parameters are all based on what the motor guy input because I have had trouble finding info on these injectors. The bosch number ends in 931 I believe GM # is 12561462. The IJPU was at 10 (7-10 for naturally aspirated) but I change it to 8 then 7 based on the fuel tables not being over 60. The IJCU was set at 2.5 but moved it to 4.0 because I found out that current could be 2-5 and you have to double it. The IJBC has been 8 since the engine guy put that in. IJOP is 1 for group fire mode.
As I stated earlier the injectors are not wired the way the computer recognizes them. Computer says 1,4 2,5 and 3,6 they are wired 1,5 4,3 and 2,6 same as ignition.
I have been trying hard to research and learn this as much as possible, but now worried going to damage motor. I dont quite understand cylinder trims. I did use the crank index position screen put it at 50 and test advance at 0. Right now BTDC is 10 degrees through the entire table. We have yet to get the timing light to flash anywhere near TDC and usually after cranking over. Have only tried twice since we discovered the ignition was firing wrong. We got a bang in the pan so we stopped. We have found lots of diagrams on the 36-1 reluctor wheel and edis 6 they all seem to show sensor over TDC or over index tooth and are either 50 or 60 degrees. Some say to put sensor over missing tooth at TDC, lik I said lots of misleading info. How do you log the rpm at 200hz?
Is there anyway to go from a Batch Fire to Semi-Sequential system with my setup so not wasting fuel or are they basically the same in my setup?
Can you help with injection timing and injector dead time.
What I really need is help just getting it to idle. I plan to take it to the same engine guy to put on his dyno and tune. He owes me a tuning for building the motor. But I prefer to get started myself since I have gotten a little further and if something gets ruined then im to blame.
To refresh your memory here is my general setup parameters
IJPU=7
IJCU=4
IJBC=8
IJOP=1
EFF=1
LOAD=1
LD s=-1
CYLS=36
RESn=2
SYSn= 0 (or 2)
reF= ? tried 61, 63 which is one missing one cycle (2 stroke) 51-54 one missing two cycles (4 stroke)
crT=36 or should it be 72
TOr=50
criP=50.0
Ign=1
COIL=3
DeLL=3.0
Dly=50
Now I need to try and get my diagrams on here for you
